The Irving Family – I’m going to guess you have strong opinions on them. It’s either K.C.’s three sons are the Holy Trinity
or they’re Scrooge McDuck, Thatcher and Hitler rolled in one. Now seeing as I’m a good ol’ Saint John boy, I’m not here to pass that sort of judgment on my old friends gassy, greasy and oily. But investigative journalist (and one-time STU lecturer) Jacques Poitras has discovered they’re actually living and breathing (but not drinking) billionaires who walk the streets of Saint John. His new book, Irving vs. Irving is now available in bookstores. I sat down with him to discuss the future of empire.
How would you characterize the Irving Family values?
The guiding values of the family are: unity, I would say, discretion and frugality. So by that I mean: (so the split has changed that or has upset that), unity being sort of putting your own personal ambitions second to the overall job of keeping the companies moving, discretion just meaning not talking a lot above the surface of what happens, and frugality in that they spend money, they spend big money when they need to, but they watch every dollar. They make sure they want to spend money when they spend it.
One of the things your book chronicles is the split of the Irving empire between the oil and forestry sectors. How do you see them keeping it together in the future?
Certainly, family unity has been damaged by the split, but on the other hand, we have seen their discretion has been as strong as ever because there has been very little discussion about the split. When you ask them about it they sort of answer in generalities “Everything is fine; they’re doing their thing, we’re doing ours.” They will not discuss the details. They will not discuss the dollar figures. They will not discuss the shifting of assets.
Will that shadowy veil over their business ever slip off?
Possibly. For example, look at this case involving Kenneth and his father, Arthur. So Kenneth, when Arthur set up his trust in Bermuda (which I describe in the book), his plan was to give each of his kids an equal share of that trust and the revenue from that trust. Kenneth wanted more because he thought he contributed more to Irving Oil.
Because he was the CEO.
Yeah, for 10 years. So there, immediately is Kenneth not putting as much value on family unity, and of putting his own goals ahead of family unity. And on the side of discretion, the case ends up in court in Bermuda, where I and others are able to find the court record and learn about this. So right there we’ve got two of the three things I mentioned falling by the wayside. And so the more cousins in the mix, the more chance stuff like that will happen and thus the more chance we’ll find out about it and we’ll see the veil slip as you put it.
A lot of people in New Brunswick call for the end of the Irving’s monopoly on the major newspapers. With the slow death of the newspapers, do you even think it’s relevant anymore?
They are perfectly entitled to own newspapers. I think they, as a business decision, should be transparent about owning the newspapers and should deal with questions of ownership and questions about the family in a more transparent way in the newspapers. It’s more of a wish on my part than a call for regulations.
It’s interesting, somebody said to me the Internet is doing to the Irving monopoly what various government investigations and inquiries could not do. It is creating a diversity of voices that didn’t exist before. There are all kinds of things popping up that add to the conversation.
Like The Aquinian.
And The Aquinian.
If you could give the editor of an Irving owned paper one piece of advice to give the paper more credibility, what would it be?
To talk more openly about the interests of the owners, and to report more openly on the interests of the owners, and to report more openly on the fact that that it’s complicated to report on the interests of the owners.
How well are the Irving group of companies positioned for the future?
I think they’re pretty well positioned. They’re in great shape. The market for fossil fuels isn’t going away despite the efforts of green energy advocates. People are still going to be burning oil for fuel for quite some time. Irving Oil’s prospects are pretty good. They’re about to plug into the Energy East pipeline. On the forestry side, J.D. Irving just got the forest allocation that it wanted from the Alward government. After 10 years, three different governments and persistent effort, they got what they wanted. What I say in the book is the Irvings are not going away and it would be foolish to bet against them.
Will New Brunswick find peace with the Irvings or is their influence over public policy too large?
I think it will always be a complex relationship. I think there will always be people who are suspicious and there will be people who think there is nothing here to question or criticize. I think the truth lies in between, especially with a company that has characterized itself as being synonymous with New Brunswick’s interests as a whole. When they talk about the forestry deal, Jim Irving will say, ‘We’re in this for New Brunswick. This is a good deal for New Brunswick. It’s not about us; it’s about the provincial economy.’ So when you equate yourself with the provincial economy you are inviting scrutiny. And so what I think needs to happen is a more informed discussion about the companies and their interests and I think that’s where the newspapers often fall short. They need to stand up.
Will we ever see a female Irving running a part of the Empire? It’s starting to sound like a patriarchy.
There is a lot of speculation of Sarah Irving, who is Arthur Irving’s daughter from his second marriage, perhaps taking a leadership role at Irving Oil in the years to come. She’s in her 20s, so there would be questions about her experience and grooming her for a move into ever-more-important roles. That is the word. She might move into the forefront of Irving Oil. I think years ago there was a sort of throw back aspect to the Irving’s as a sort of old-fashioned-guy sort of company, but I would expect that to change as the years go by.
If the Irving Empire was the Empire in the Star Wars saga, what film would we be in now?
We’ll I’m not sure if I’d equate them because that would imply that they’re evil and I don’t think they’re evil.
Darth Vader has both light and dark within him.
True. We’re probably somewhere between four and five in the sense that if you extend the analogy in a ridiculous way, some of these new indie-media sources would be taking on this monopoly and providing an alternative and scoring some little victories.
The question is: I would not predict we would ever get to Episode 6. I don’t think this corporate entity will ever fall apart or be overthrown. As I said, these are well-run companies that are very focused on their goals. I think they will be there forever.
